Scheme?

[cheapshotartist]

I'm sitting here getting ready for the draft and reading post and I've noticed several fans talking about drafting players to fit our scheme. My question is what is our scheme? Whatever we have been trying for the past 6 season has not worked so how do we have a scheme? We change our HC and OC damn near every two years so how do we have a scheme? On offense we have a ZBS which translates to we have a weak OL, so knowing this why don't we draft decent OL who can just play football? F*** a scheme If a player has talent he can play in any scheme. Same thing on defense we play man coverage with our corners but we have no pass rush. Does that make sense? Aso and Johnson are not that good! If we play man and the QB gets the time to throw our corners will be toast. We can't stop the run or rush the QB so what is our defensive scheme? IMHO I think our "scheme" is what ever Al tells the HC to do what else can it be? None of our HC's have been here long enough to put in their/Al's scheme. So with the draft being this Saturday what type of plan does Al have regarding the draft? Speed is always number one with Al and drafting speed has not worked. Huff has speed, Morrison and Howard have speed, we have speed on offense and we still continue to lose. Our scheme should be to draft football players not track stars and projects! Stop drafting for depth when we need starters, draft players who can start and help us win. Al's vertical offense is a thing of the past, you can't take 7 step drops in 2009! Comments?
:csa:

[Don]

I'm sitting here getting ready for the draft and reading post and I've noticed several fans talking about drafting players to fit our scheme. My question is what is our scheme? Whatever we have been trying for the past 6 season has not worked so how do we have a scheme? We change our HC and OC damn near every two years so how do we have a scheme? On offense we have a ZBS which translates to we have a weak OL, so knowing this why don't we draft decent OL who can just play football? F*** a scheme If a player has talent he can play in any scheme. Same thing on defense we play man coverage with our corners but we have no pass rush. Does that make sense? Aso and Johnson are not that good! If we play man and the QB gets the time to throw our corners will be toast. We can't stop the run or rush the QB so what is our defensive scheme? IMHO I think our "scheme" is what ever Al tells the HC to do what else can it be? None of our HC's have been here long enough to put in their/Al's scheme. So with the draft being this Saturday what type of plan does Al have regarding the draft? Speed is always number one with Al and drafting speed has not worked. Huff has speed, Morrison and Howard have speed and we still continue to lose.Our scheme should be to draft football players not track stars and projects! Comments?
:csa:


Good Thread CSA.

On offense we have a ZBS which translates to we have a weak OL, so knowing this why don't we draft decent OL who can just play football? F*** a scheme If a player has talent he can play in any scheme.

I feel what you are saying in regards to the ZBS. Take last year for example, Willie Anderson was a FA and we could have picked him up and he would have instantly upgraded out LT position, but instead we tried to slap new treads on a guy with youtube videos highlighting how much HE SUCKS! Broncos run ZBS, and opted for a mauler type and it panned out for them.

It favors the smaller, athletic lineman using them in a gimmicky manner to cut down the rushers and open up holes. IT seems like the system is conducive to taking scraps and recycling them.

However, our rushing ranking went from 29th in 06 to 5th in 07 and 10th in 08 so I can honestly say the ZBS has helped us in that facet. Now if we can just at least get a true franchise LT who can play despite scheme (see Ryan Clady) then I can care less if we run the GreasyPigBlocking system.

Same thing on defense we play man coverage with our corners but we have no pass rush. Does that make sense? Aso and Johnson are not that good! If we play man and the QB gets the time to throw our corners will be toast. We can't stop the run or rush the QB so what is our defensive scheme? IMHO I think our "scheme" is what ever Al tells the HC to do what else can it be?

Nothing wrong with a 4-3 man to man scheme if you have the personell to run it. Also nothing wrong with the franchise dictating to the coach's which scheme to run. Not very many coaches get to implement their own schemes.
You are absolutely correct that with out run defense or some semblance of a consistant pass rush, man coverage is useless. The QB has all day to run PA, find the single coverage, etc. Safeties get lost too when they are expected to save TD runs every other down while watching the pass.
The speed vs. football players issue is huge, though. If we can't get some real thumpers at safety and LB, we will be seeing the same crap yet again..

Some semblance of an offense will help out with the issues we had on D last year though. I'm feeling like NT is the biggest need on D bar none

[cheapshotartist]

^^ Thanks 4 the replay and breakdown Don. :csa:

[Uncle Nook Nook]

while the raiders were ranked top 10 in rushing yards the last 2 seasons, how high were they ranked in rushing TD's?
probably at the bottom of the pack.

[Antonio Trotter]

while the raiders were ranked top 10 in rushing yards the last 2 seasons, how high were they ranked in rushing TD's?
probably at the bottom of the pack.

Well, this is what happens when Justin Fargas gets the lions share of the carries...

You will rank at the bottom for rushing TD's almost exclusively.

[Buck Rogers]

We need more talent, better players. I know Kelly, Warren, Morrison Howard etc are not exactly world-beaters, but I'm damn near positve they would be more effective on the Patsies playing for a smart defensive game-planner like the Belichick. Being out of position, over-pursuing, lack of discipline and gap control are every bit the problem that lack of talent is.

[JAYEL]

We need more talent, better players. I know Kelly, Warren, Morrison Howard etc are not exactly world-beaters, but I'm damn near positve they would be more effective on the Patsies playing for a smart defensive game-planner like the Belichick. Being out of position, over-pursuing, lack of discipline and gap control are every bit the problem that lack of talent is.

This cannot be disputed...agree 110 Buck.

Your also right CSA...without a pass rush, our CBs cant cover forever. If we supposedly have the best CB in league in Nnamdi, then we have to gamble and blitz more with safeties and linebackers. Take advantage of him shutting down one side of the field and SCHEME to our defensive strengths which is basically Nnamdi.

[GenRaider]

You cannot make a BLT Sandwhich out of a can of dog shit. Talent... You need talent first and foremost...

The Gilman style of O still works, you just need a line that knows how to block longer... The last couple of super bowl contenders have used a stretch offense.

[or24]

Good football players will find a place in any scheme imo. Even if you dont have all the talent in the world sometimes just smart, fundamentally sound football players can fill a position. We dont have many of those. We have project players who dont have football speed or play physical enough for their position. Guys who dont know HOW to play their position. We overpay and draft these bums and average players because they are big names.

Take T. Howard for example, I think he's a pretty decent player but you wont find a guy like him starting on most nfl teams. He is not a strong guy and he often is lost out on the field. He relies all on his speed. He plays LINEBACKER in the nfl and yet I bet I could down to my local gym and find plenty of guys stronger than him. Nnamdi, our CORNERBACK, plays more physical than he does. But he can usually get the job done because he wraps up but the guy plays a lot smaller than he is. That's not a quality I look for in one of my starting linebackers. On most teams he would be a situational pass rusher or converted into a SS imo.

[el boracho]

We need more talent, better players. I know Kelly, Warren, Morrison Howard etc are not exactly world-beaters, but I'm damn near positve they would be more effective on the Patsies playing for a smart defensive game-planner like the Belichick. Being out of position, over-pursuing, lack of discipline and gap control are every bit the problem that lack of talent is.

exactly....Talent is not everything in the NFl...You need a well rounded staff that knows what the hell to do with the talent on the team....You know dam well some of these socalled bums on our team would excel in a good system...You need to have balance with an organization...Coaching, front office personnell, players and so forth...It all works hand in hand...Of course we need some dam football players on this team but we also need a good coaching staff

[or24]

exactly....Talent is not everything in the NFl...You need a well rounded staff that knows what the hell to do with the talent on the team....You know dam well some of these socalled bums on our team would excel in a good system...You need to have balance with an organization...Coaching, front office personnell, players and so forth...It all works hand in hand...Of course we need some dam football players on this team but we also need a good coaching staff
I definitely think our coaching holds our players back. Honestly you think Nnamdi would go a whole season on another team and get 1 interception?? No. They would find ways to make qb's throw the ball his way. They utilize the strengths of their team and play toward them. I know people say Al makes all the calls but I think dropping R. Ryan will have a significant impact on our defense. That is unless Marshall is as dumb as he is. I dont know much about the guy.

[cheapshotartist]

You cannot make a BLT Sandwhich out of a can of dog shit. Talent... You need talent first and foremost...

The Gilman style of O still works, you just need a line that knows how to block longer... The last couple of super bowl contenders have used a stretch offense.

"The last couple of super bowl contenders have used a stretch offense".

Very true but they both incorporated it into their game plans, they did not just line up and try to go long.:csa:

[cheapshotartist]

Good football players will find a place in any scheme imo. Even if you dont have all the talent in the world sometimes just smart, fundamentally sound football players can fill a position. We dont have many of those. We have project players who dont have football speed or play physical enough for their position. Guys who dont know HOW to play their position. We overpay and draft these bums and average players because they are big names.

Take T. Howard for example, I think he's a pretty decent player but you wont find a guy like him starting on most nfl teams. He is not a strong guy and he often is lost out on the field. He relies all on his speed. He plays LINEBACKER in the nfl and yet I bet I could down to my local gym and find plenty of guys stronger than him. Nnamdi, our CORNERBACK, plays more physical than he does. But he can usually get the job done because he wraps up but the guy plays a lot smaller than he is. That's not a quality I look for in one of my starting linebackers. On most teams he would be a situational pass rusher or converted into a SS imo.

You hit the nail on the head 24 and this is why we need a GM. Al drafts players he thinks are different than the average NFL player and he is right because most of our starting players would be back ups or on the street with most NFL teams. We need football players!
:csa:

[cheapshotartist]

exactly....Talent is not everything in the NFl...You need a well rounded staff that knows what the hell to do with the talent on the team....You know dam well some of these socalled bums on our team would excel in a good system...You need to have balance with an organization...Coaching, front office personnell, players and so forth...It all works hand in hand...Of course we need some dam football players on this team but we also need a good coaching staff

Word! If you take an average football player and have below average coaches coaching him you end up with a stiff with little up side.
:csa:

[cheapshotartist]

I definitely think our coaching holds our players back. Honestly you think Nnamdi would go a whole season on another team and get 1 interception?? No. They would find ways to make qb's throw the ball his way. They utilize the strengths of their team and play toward them. I know people say Al makes all the calls but I think dropping R. Ryan will have a significant impact on our defense. That is unless Marshall is as dumb as he is. I dont know much about the guy.

I really think that Al has some say so in the type of defense we play. :csa:

[bigjayboogie]

Good Thread CSA.



I feel what you are saying in regards to the ZBS. Take last year for example, Willie Anderson was a FA and we could have picked him up and he would have instantly upgraded out LT position, but instead we tried to slap new treads on a guy with youtube videos highlighting how much HE SUCKS! Broncos run ZBS, and opted for a mauler type and it panned out for them.

It favors the smaller, athletic lineman using them in a gimmicky manner to cut down the rushers and open up holes. IT seems like the system is conducive to taking scraps and recycling them.

However, our rushing ranking went from 29th in 06 to 5th in 07 and 10th in 08 so I can honestly say the ZBS has helped us in that facet. Now if we can just at least get a true franchise LT who can play despite scheme (see Ryan Clady) then I can care less if we run the GreasyPigBlocking system.



Nothing wrong with a 4-3 man to man scheme if you have the personell to run it. Also nothing wrong with the franchise dictating to the coach's which scheme to run. Not very many coaches get to implement their own schemes.
You are absolutely correct that with out run defense or some semblance of a consistant pass rush, man coverage is useless. The QB has all day to run PA, find the single coverage, etc. Safeties get lost too when they are expected to save TD runs every other down while watching the pass.
The speed vs. football players issue is huge, though. If we can't get some real thumpers at safety and LB, we will be seeing the same crap yet again..

Some semblance of an offense will help out with the issues we had on D last year though. I'm feeling like NT is the biggest need on D bar none

surprisingly cable said that a good lineman can play any scheme...that was news to me....so he obviously would have picked a stud lineman if he was allowed too...I think

[Buck Rogers]

surprisingly cable said that a good lineman can play any scheme...that was news to me....so he obviously would have picked a stud lineman if he was allowed too...I think
What's up BigJ good to see you here. And yes, I believe if Cable had the final say he would take Andre Smith in a heartbeat and coach him into a beast.

[Don]

surprisingly cable said that a good lineman can play any scheme...that was news to me....so he obviously would have picked a stud lineman if he was allowed too...I think

i know but it contradicted what he said last year when asked about willie anderson. he gave the "round hole square peg" run around..a definate contradiction...

[JAYEL]

What's up BigJ good to see you here. And yes, I believe if Cable had the final say he would take Andre Smith in a heartbeat and coach him into a beast.

Beasts are born. :rofl

[cheapshotartist]

surprisingly cable said that a good lineman can play any scheme...that was news to me....so he obviously would have picked a stud lineman if he was allowed too...I think

On most teams the HC would be able to draft the players he wants but this is Oakland and Al gets what Al wants. We should draft a stud LT just as we should draft a stud NT, MLB, SLB, FS and SS. This is how you rebuild.
:csa:

[kyh0mpb]

On most teams the HC would be able to draft the players he wants but this is Oakland and Al gets what Al wants. We should draft a stud LT just as we should draft a stud NT, MLB, SLB, FS and SS. This is how you rebuild.
:csa:

I would say on most teams the GM and coach work together to decide on a player. It's a fact of life that on this team, the GM far outranks the coach, so we gotta just deal with it.